WATCH | ‘We failed our people’: Mathews Phosa admits ANC ‘dropped the ball’ on justice

In an unflinchingly candid appearance on the Frank Dialogue podcast in partnership with Sunday World, ANC veteran, and former Mpumalanga Premier Dr Mathews Phosa delivered a blistering critique of the governing party, conceding that the movement has failed to deliver justice for apartheid-era atrocities, lost its way through pervasive corruption, and must completely dissolve its compromised branch structures to survive.

Speaking to hosts JJ and Tessa Dooms, Phosa didn’t mince words about the state of South Africa’s democracy, the realities of impending local government elections, and the structural decay eating away at the historic liberation movement.

Opening up a long-festering wound regarding the 300-plus unprosecuted cases stemming from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) hearings, Phosa offered a blunt and unapologetic assessment of the state’s failure to bring closure to victims’ families over 32 years of democracy.

“You can’t explain it, except to say we failed our people. We failed to pursue justice and fairness to the families of those who died, or who were brutalised.”

These cases are now finally being placed under the microscope due to the Khampepe commission, which is currently airing out allegations of political interference being behind said failures.

READ: Mbeki denies political interference in apartheid-era prosecutions

When pressed on whether backroom compromises during the CODESA negotiations shielded perpetrators from a Nuremberg-style trial, Phosa recalled standing his ground against military demands for sweeping blanket amnesties. He recounted a tense midnight standoff with Gen Constand Viljoen, who threatened to let his men “go loose” if amnesty wasn’t granted.

Phosa walked out of the room rather than capitulate, declaring: “Listen, we’re not agreeing on this amnesty nonsense.”

While the matter was deferred to the TRC framework requiring full individual disclosure, Phosa conceded that the subsequent failure to prosecute those who omitted details or walked scot-free amounts to an historic fumble:

“If you ask me, I think we did drop the ball. Absolutely. Yeah, we should never have allowed murderers to go scot-free, and that’s just the truth.”

Shifting focus to the electoral landscape and local government dynamics, Phosa acknowledged that the romanticism of the liberation struggle has officially expired. Voters are judging the ruling party harshly on its current track record.

“Our democracy is maturing. We should not be afraid of a democracy that is maturing. When it started in 1994, the ANC had this romanticism of liberation. It’s gone. Now we must be judged on merits, and the track record which we have at the moment is high level of corruption, lack of service delivery, load shedding, you know, unemployment beyond 39%.”

Phosa noted that the days of a single dominant political party are decisively over, warning that political entities across the spectrum must prepare for pragmatic compromises and local governments of unity:

“The bigger parties must realize that the day of a dominant party are over. They’re over, they’re gone… People are going to sleep with the devil at some point.”

Addressing the internal crisis plaguing the ANC, Phosa warned that the movement is deeply in trouble, plagued by internal rot, corruption, and a departure from the founding vision of Oliver Tambo. He doubled down on his controversial proposal for a total organizational reset:

“I’ve said our ANC is in trouble… The nature is corruption. The nature is the branches of the ANC are not pursuing the objectives of the ANC, the original objectives.”

Insisting that superficial fixes will not work, Phosa used a sharp culinary analogy to emphasize why leadership cannot redeem the organization without radical surgery:

“You’re not going to cook an omelette with rotten eggs, because it will taste sour.”

He suggested that veterans and elder statesmen like Kgalema Motlanthe should be called upon to step in, dissolve the compromised branch networks entirely, and assist in relaunching the structures from the ground up, much like the rebuilding efforts of the early 1990s.

Phosa also broke ranks to call for a comprehensive overhaul of South Africa’s foundational legal architecture, arguing that governance structures set up in 1994 are no longer fit for purpose in 2026. Among his proposals, he advocated for cutting down the bloated national cabinet to a leaner professional team of 12 and rationalizing provincial governments to reduce wasteful expenditure.

On the volatile issue of immigration and porous borders, Phosa did not spare his own party or society from critique, pointing out failures in state accountability while urging a return to genuine human empathy and political education:

“It’s us. If our borders were tight, no one would come in. So we’ve opened for them. Must take responsibility for that and deal with that situation… South Africans think, they take things easy, and we must stop taking things easy.”

Despite his profound concerns about the current trajectory, Phosa insisted he has not given up on the movement to which he sacrificed his youth. Pointing to recent systemic anti-corruption interventions and the reduction of debilitating load shedding, he expressed cautious optimism that tougher institutional stances are finally taking root.

Looking ahead to the ANC’s upcoming leadership transitions, Phosa predicted that a generational shift is inevitable:

“Big time! Big time, and it will come out. The Gen Zs will move into the center of the leadership of the ANC.”

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